The rennie podcast is about the real estate market and the people connected by it. Tune in for monthly discussions making sense of the latest market data.
EPISODE #90: KELOWNA HOUSING: THE LONG AND THE SHORT-TERM OF IT
Join Ryan Berlin (Chief Economist and Vice President of Intelligence) and Ryan Wyse (Market Intelligence Manager and Lead Analyst) as they are joined by rennie Kelowna advisor Rob Breckwoldt to discuss the goings-on in the Okanagan's, and Vancouver's, housing markets. They explore how each market is adjusting to changing conditions, why buyers are becoming more selective, and what record rental supply, evolving investor dynamics, and the short-term rental ban reversal mean for Kelowna.
Featured guests:
Ryan Berlin, Head Economist and Vice President of Intelligence
Ryan Wyse, Lead Analyst and Market Intelligence Manager
Rob Breckwoldt , rennie advisor
We’d love to answer your real estate questions. Email us at [email protected] or leave a voicemail, and we’ll try to respond in future episodes.
Transcript
Rob Breckwoldt: I feel the market's just finding its new foundation after such a rollercoaster of a ride
Ryan Berlin: There's no urgency in the market.
Rob Breckwoldt: If you really then look at the product that's sitting and that's moving, there's a perceived value. Like, I can see the value, whether it's, like, it has a view, it's on a quiet street.
Ryan Berlin: 40,000 people leave Metro Vancouver every year.
Ryan Wyse: So literally 10 times as many homes were started construction on in Kelowna in the past decade versus the decade prior.
Ryan Berlin: I think Kelowna and the Okanagan is just, it's a really resilient part of the world. Uh, it's very desirable, and we're starting to see people come back.
Ryan Berlin: [upbeat music] Welcome to another episode of the rennie Podcast. This month, we've got our usual Metro Vancouver market read, but we're also putting it side by side with Kelowna. To help us do that, we have Ryan Wyse, market intelligence manager and lead analyst in the intel group here at rennie. And Rob, "don't call it a comeback," Breckwoldt, returning podcast guest and
Ryan Wyse: Wow
Ryan Berlin: ... uh, advisor here at rennie, based out of Kelowna.
Ryan Wyse: Hey. Welcome.
Ryan Berlin: You weren't expecting that middle name that I came up with you.
Rob Breckwoldt: No, I, I enjoyed it, though.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: Thank you.
Ryan Berlin: Yes. Yeah, welcome back.
Rob Breckwoldt: Thanks. Thanks for having me.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: Great to see you.
Ryan Berlin: What, a couple years?
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: Another one of those.
Ryan Wyse: Two years. Two years.
Ryan Berlin: Another one of those. Felt like two months.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah, I was thinking about it. I believe mine was the last audio only.
Ryan Wyse: Oh, okay.
Rob Breckwoldt: I was a little jealous.
Ryan Berlin: The last audio... Oh, right.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: So you haven't been on camera yet.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: Well, there you go.
Ryan Wyse: But we, we had you on and we thought, you know what?
Rob Breckwoldt: I was jealous.
Ryan Wyse: We need to get these on camera.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Wyse: So you can take
Rob Breckwoldt: We need, yeah
Ryan Wyse: ... some credit for it.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Wyse: Okay.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: Your hair's looking good.
Rob Breckwoldt: It feels great. [laughs]
Ryan Berlin: Yeah. Yeah. It's good that you're on camera.
Rob Breckwoldt: Well, yeah, a little gray.
Ryan Berlin: And
Ryan Wyse: Me too.
Ryan Berlin: Uh, what's keeping you busy?
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah, it's, uh, a mix of life and work, as per usual. Heading into the springtime in the Kelowna market. There's also a battle with lifestyle because the lifestyle activities start to increase as well.
Ryan Berlin: When you moved, you were in Maple Ridge for years.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: And then how many years has it been since you've been in Kelowna now?
Rob Breckwoldt: Four years.
Ryan Berlin: Four years?
Rob Breckwoldt: Four years this June.
Ryan Berlin: Wow. Yeah, so wow.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: So you moved there for lifestyle reasons and professional reasons, or was it all lifestyle?
Rob Breckwoldt: It was all lifestyle.
Ryan Berlin: Oh, okay.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: Okay.
Rob Breckwoldt: Led with lifestyle, and the professional opportunities followed.
Ryan Berlin: Not many people in Maple Ridge have a boat. Is that what it is?
Ryan Wyse: No, I'd say there is.
Rob Breckwoldt: Maybe they do go elsewhere.
Ryan Wyse: It's a surprise. Yeah, it's a surprise.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah, that's true. You know, I'd say
Ryan Wyse: See the trailers going up to Golden Ears.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah, that's true.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: That's where the toys are.
Ryan Wyse: Pit Lake, Okanagan Lake.
Rob Breckwoldt: I had a boat there.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: So.
Ryan Berlin: Okay. Well, then forget my comment.
Ryan Wyse: [laughs]
Ryan Berlin: So as we alluded to in the opening, today we're gonna explore the resale markets in Vancouver and Kelowna, and then we're gonna pivot into a discussion of Kelowna's rental market, both the long-term and short-term varieties. The latter especially because the city of Kelowna has decided to reverse the ban that it had previously placed on short-term rentals on, uh, June 1st. Uh, so just a couple days ago. So we'll get to that. Let's start with resale. Looking at the data, and I haven't looked at the Kelowna data much. I know looking at the data for Vancouver
Ryan Wyse: That's why Rob's here. We're good.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah. Okay. You got the data too, so.
Ryan Wyse: [laughs]
Rob Breckwoldt: I got all of it.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah. Okay, good.
Rob Breckwoldt: All of it.
Ryan Berlin: Like, if I had to characterize the resale market here, and speaking mostly about Metro Vancouver, I'd use the phrase a little less of everything, because we've got fewer sales. I mean, depends what your context is, but you sort of look back over time. And, and I know the month-to-month story is different. You can, you can speak to that.
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Berlin: But, you know, sales generally have been trending down over the years. We have new listings that have come off, and now we, we've seen inventory on a seasonally adjusted basis, um, plateau, uh, maybe reach a floor. You have the numbers in front of you, Ryan, so why don't you provide some additional context.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah. And I'd say it's kind of a continuation of last month as well. So we talked about, you know, we're getting these month-to-month increases in sales, but it's not necessarily as much as last year anymore, near average. So 3,200 and change sales last month for the Vancouver region, so both the Vancouver and Fraser Valley board areas. So it was another marginal increase over April. It was less than last year and still 34% below average, so.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah. Below average.
Ryan Wyse: You know, a bit, a bit [laughs] yeah.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Ryan Wyse: A bit more of the same. And I think, you know, you said a little less of everything. New listings, I think, is more of the story. So it, we continue to trend much less than last year for new listings. They actually fell month to month, when you typically would see an expansion April to May. So that was pretty notable. And for the first time in a couple years, we had below average new listings for that specific month. So fewer new listings coming, fewer sales overall.
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Wyse: Kind of conditions are still tightening up a little bit. So inventory typically expands this time of year. And it did again last month. So we just hit, like, 24,500 listings, which is still really elevated, 46% above average. But again, less than last year's level. And the gap between the levels of last year and this year has started to grow. And so we went from previously being higher to now a little bit lower to now 4% lower than last year. So I think this is a trend we're gonna see continue as inventory typically plateaus
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm
Ryan Wyse: ... around June in a, in a given year. And that kinda hangs out during the summer.
Ryan Berlin: So would you say, so just looking, like, in the, in the aggregate here, and Rob chime in too from your perspective, like, you're, you're actually, you know, on the ground, you're working with people. When you look at these numbers, do you think, "Oh, the market has improved"?
Ryan Wyse: You know, whether it's something is good or bad, has improved or gotten worse, kind of is in the eye of, you know, the person participating in real estate. Like, it, it's different for different people. I would say conditions are less extreme. Last year was an extreme low for sales and extreme high for new listings, whereas this year sales are still really low, but new listings aren't as extreme. And I think overall
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm
Ryan Wyse: ... it's a slightly healthier market. Certainly there's still a lot of inventory, there's a lot of options, there's not a ton of buyers. But I would say it's less extreme.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah, it feels a little bit more, I guess, dare to say balanced.
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: A new balance. Uh.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah, I mean
Rob Breckwoldt: Brought to you by... [laughs]
Ryan Wyse: [laughs] I'm wearing HOKA's today.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Wyse: So.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah, I feel the market's just finding its new foundation after such a rollercoaster of a ride of a couple years. I think it's still a relatively healthy environment to transact in.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah, as a buyer.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah, as a buyer, but I think depending, I guess, your goal as a seller, I mean, if you're buying and selling in the same market, you're one day a seller, you're one day a buyer. So really
Ryan Berlin: Yeah
Rob Breckwoldt: ... same.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, I think sellers will They latch on to the high watermark value of, of their home.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: And I, I know some people have a tendency to view it as a loss if they don't sell at the peak.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: And in fact, they've realized tremendous gains over the, the tenure of their... But it's true; when you're transacting the same market, I mean, we're seeing prices, like when you look at condos versus detached homes, so the kind of the two ends of the spectrum, here in Metro Vancouver, and including town homes in between, like none of those home types have reached values that are at the previous peaks from early 2022, and they're down variously by, call it 10 to 15%. So it is across the board. So yeah, even if you're moving up market within a market
Rob Breckwoldt: Mm-hmm
Ryan Berlin: ... and you're not trading like for like, everything's kinda still moving in the same direction.
Rob Breckwoldt: And I think the reality is, it is what it is. If this point in time you're needing to transact or you wanna transact, then that's just what it is. You can't fight that it's no longer the past, and you cannot predict the future, so you just have to transact at what is and decide to move forward or not.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah, I mean, there's no urgency in the market. People aren't suffering from FOMO. They might be suffering from FOOP.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah. I like it. [laughs]
Ryan Wyse: Fear of overpaying.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: I like it. But what's interesting is that they're not really interested in taking the loss, what they're perceived as a loss, but in the previous markets they were welcoming to overpay.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: Even though they had o- they maybe got over purchased by, you know, like the, the
Ryan Berlin: Yeah
Rob Breckwoldt: ... they were in the seller's position, they got over asking, then they freely went and spent that money.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: Like, and the gain, but it's interesting to see the mindset when it's perceived as a loss.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah, and I think
Ryan Berlin: Yeah
Ryan Wyse: ... other advisors that we've had on have talked about, like, the herd mentality that came in 2021 and 2022, and I think it can be a similar thing now, where if your friends and family think it's not a great time to buy, and you're
Rob Breckwoldt: Yes
Ryan Wyse: ... not seeing other people go out to buy, you, it adds a bit of hesitation on your part. Should I wait a little bit longer?
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Wyse: Will prices come down more?
Rob Breckwoldt: And I think the access to information has, has opened up a lot. So I know for a lot of my clientele, like I can see when the, the copy and paste from
Ryan Wyse: Oh, yeah
Rob Breckwoldt: ... some sort of chat is coming into play and, you know, sometimes there's some valid points, for sure. But it's, it's definitely causing some, uh, confusion.
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Berlin: If you see too many em dashes, then you just discount it.
Ryan Wyse: [laughs]
Ryan Berlin: Um
Ryan Wyse: Ryan Berlin's the only human that loves
Ryan Berlin: Yes
Ryan Wyse: ... the em dash.
Ryan Berlin: I do.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: I do, though. Yes, I know.
Ryan Wyse: ChatGPT stole your style.
Ryan Berlin: I know. I feel slightly offended when people say that.
Ryan Wyse: [laughs]
Ryan Berlin: Like, if you see lots of em dashes, it, you know, it's AI.
Ryan Wyse: The guy's been writing with em dashes his whole career.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah, yeah. I mean, to a fault.
Ryan Wyse: [laughs]
Ryan Berlin: A lot. I actually wanna ask you a question about pricing and that conversation a little bit more with, with sellers.
Rob Breckwoldt: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Berlin: But maybe, Ryan, you've got some data
Ryan Wyse: Sure
Ryan Berlin: ... for Kelowna, so why don't we talk about that?
Ryan Wyse: Yeah, and I think we're seeing a lot of similarities, and I think, you know, globally there's a lot of similarities just given everything that's happened. But certainly in the various BC markets that we're involved in. And so in Kelowna, inventory is coming in less than last year, but it's still like 37% above average. But, you know, last month it was just over 3,000 active listings at the end of the month, which was 10% less than last year. So that dynamic that we're seeing in Vancouver is definitely
Rob Breckwoldt: Wow
Ryan Wyse: ... is playing into Kelowna as well, where we started the year with really, really elevated inventory and is growing much more slowly as there's just fewer new listings coming to market.
Ryan Berlin: Is that perceptible, like when you're in the market? 'Cause that's a, that's actually a huge change, like inventory on a year over year basis
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm
Ryan Berlin: ... being down by 10%. It's, I mean, still being more than a third over the past decade
Ryan Wyse: Yeah
Ryan Berlin: ... average, which means
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah
Ryan Berlin: ... it was, I mean, it was close to 50% prior, but like, do you feel that, or does it just feel like there's still a lot of options for buyers?
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah, it's, it's interesting when you talk about options. I feel that, you know, I could go, yeah, there's a lot of options to show a buyer, but what they'll actually purchase is, is another thing.
Ryan Berlin: What are they doing? Like we've, we've talked to advisors who have said that, that buyers are becoming a lot more picky, right? They're becoming more... I mean, we've talked too, off camera, like buyers are, are more aggressively coming in with lowball offers, but then also, you know, after inspection, really nitpicking and looking for ways to, to bring down the price.
Rob Breckwoldt: I think there's a, a lot of different strategies around that as well, but I think from general perception, I think if the house fits the need of the buyer, they will pay something in and around the market value. And what's the market value? Well, it's just gonna depend on what the seller's willing to sell it for and the buyer's willing to buy it for. I love all the data points we have access to, and I agree with you, like it's pretty amazing to see some of the numbers that are growing currently in Kelowna. And on a ground level just from driving around, like I, I've had even friends and family make comments of like, "Oh wow, the for sale sign went up," and then all of a sudden in a quite short time sold sticker went up.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm.
Rob Breckwoldt: So the absorption is there, but if you really then look at the product that's sitting and that's moving, there's a perceived value. Like I can see the value, whether it's like it has a view, it's on a quiet street, and I think if you kinda get a 6 out of 10 and up, it'll move. If you get something on a busy street or the seller just hasn't taken their time to present it, like that's where, yes, buyers will come in.
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm. Mm.
Rob Breckwoldt: And then if they feel there's, there's an opportunity to be had, they're gonna exercise the ability to do that. But I've also seen good product go in multiple offers, like or sell very quickly.
Ryan Berlin: What you're seeing here too, there's not a singular sort of story that applies equally to all parts of these markets
Rob Breckwoldt: Mm-hmm
Ryan Berlin: ... across product types
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah
Ryan Berlin: ... across neighborhoods, right? You still see stuff moving that is appealing to families.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: That's r- you're ready to move into or has a feature that, you know, the other homes don't have. [laughs]
Ryan Wyse: Well, one of the other things we're hearing down here a lot from some of our advisors is that so much of the detached home inventory, specifically the single family homes, is like tear downs. It's stuff that is not move-in ready. You either need to do a massive reno or it's like really actually just being marketed as like duplex or multiplex land.
Rob Breckwoldt: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Wyse: And so they say, you know, if you look at the total number of detached listings, the stuff that's actually like ready to go for a family to move into is, uh, you know, a subset of that. There's actually a lot of listings that just aren't real listings in terms of a ready to go home.
Rob Breckwoldt: There's some of that.
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm.
Rob Breckwoldt: I wouldn't say it's majority.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Ryan Wyse: Okay.
Rob Breckwoldt: I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it's majority. I would say the ones that sit are usually the ones that- Are on the busier street, the ones that had maybe been a rental previously
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm
Rob Breckwoldt: ... and just have no pride of home ownership. But if you get a home that shows, like, a tremendous pride of home ownership and just, again, of, like, value, whether that's a bigger yard or something that's different than, than what, what they can't find out of the other eight that they viewed
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm
Rob Breckwoldt: ... then, then it goes.
Ryan Berlin: Okay.
Rob Breckwoldt: For sure.
Ryan Berlin: So on the sales front in Kelowna.
Ryan Wyse: So similar to Vancouver, sales for May about 7% less than last year, 18% below average.
Ryan Berlin: Wow.
Ryan Wyse: But notably, condo sales last month were the highest of any month in the last two years.
Ryan Berlin: Right.
Ryan Wyse: 'Cause that condo market had been hit so hard in Kelowna.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Ryan Wyse: So condo sales comparatively the highest in two years, which I thought was noteworthy. But the other thing that's interesting is s- sales this year are much higher than two years ago, so they're less than last year, but much higher than two years ago. So that Kelowna market was hit so hard by a variety of factors in 2024. That was the toughest year, I think, for that market, whereas here it's been more recently, in Victoria it's been more recent. In Kelowna, it was all about that 2024. One of the things, of course, that happened in 2024 was the introduction of the short-term rental ban. Coming off the fires, coming off the cold snap at the wineries. Like, there were so many things kinda working against that market at that time.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah, it felt like it was coming from, from a lot of different angles.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: Right? Not just market.
Ryan Wyse: Fire.
Rob Breckwoldt: Not just policy.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: Climate, and that really changed the landscape of who was willing to engage in the market. It was a tough go since 2024, and I think the numbers reflect that. I think Kelowna and the Okanagan is just, it's a really resilient part of the world. Uh, it's very desirable, and we're starting to see people come back.
Ryan Berlin: But on that, so who are the buyers right now? Like, is it locals? Is it downsizers? Is it Alberta money
Rob Breckwoldt: Oh
Ryan Berlin: ... investors?
Rob Breckwoldt: Oh, yeah.
Ryan Berlin: Like, what are we seeing?
Rob Breckwoldt: It, it's a little bit
Ryan Berlin: Is it just across the board
Rob Breckwoldt: ... of everything.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: Like, I could not tell you this type of buyer is dominating the purchase. Uh, it's, it's, it's really just a, a mix, and in my portfolio of product, I have a whole variety of products, so it's nice because I'm exposed to that and seeing who comes in.
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm.
Rob Breckwoldt: But definitely, like, if I think back in the last couple weeks, it's, like, people coming from the south. Like, that seems to be... I'm starting to see it more and more, like, hearing it. Like, it's not an abundance, like they're not flocking here, but
Ryan Berlin: From the south? Like, from the US?
Rob Breckwoldt: From the States, yeah. So that's an interesting dynamic.
Ryan Berlin: Mm.
Rob Breckwoldt: I think that's, that's starting to, to happen. So what's interesting, though, is some of them are not aware of the foreign buyer ban, so you have to educate them on that, for sure.
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm.
Rob Breckwoldt: But it doesn't still seem too much of a deterrent, which is interesting. So I don't know if it's maybe perhaps to do with the exchange.
Ryan Berlin: I mean, if people have a connection here, if they're actually moving here
Ryan Wyse: Yeah
Ryan Berlin: ... then the ban won't catch them, right?
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah. There is definitely an abundance of people coming from, uh, like you got Toronto, you got Alberta.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah, yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: You still got the coast. I feel the biggest component is the lifestyle. The lifestyle is the biggest driving factor. What's interesting is I go on this founder's hike every Tuesday, 6:30 AM, Knox Mountain, come one, come all.
Ryan Berlin: Mm.
Rob Breckwoldt: But what's interesting is you essentially just have a melting pot of people from everywhere.
Ryan Berlin: Right.
Rob Breckwoldt: And the most common talked about thing is the lifestyle. Like, we'll talk business.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: We'll exchange what, you know, business we're in and such, and I mean, you know, we're, we're hiking up a beautiful mountainside at 6:30 in the morning overlooking the lake, so it's kinda hard not to, like, obviously
Ryan Berlin: Talk about lifestyle [laughs]
Rob Breckwoldt: ... take in lifestyle. But it's interesting, everybody's from everywhere. Like, you know, a lot of people are definitely get to know, people definitely come from Alberta, but it's Alberta, the coast, the States. Those are the, I think the three driving factors.
Ryan Berlin: It doesn't take much change as it relates to the Kelowna marketplace to have an outsize effect. I mean, there's only, I mean, there's roughly the same number of people in the entire central Okanagan as there are in Burnaby.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: And it's a little bit more than, uh, half the size of the greater Victoria region. This is not a hugely populous part of the province.
Rob Breckwoldt: No.
Ryan Berlin: And we also know that in the past, Kelowna has punched above its weight in terms of sales activity per capita.
Rob Breckwoldt: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Berlin: A lot of that was-
Ryan Wyse: Yeah
Ryan Berlin: ... the investor set. Kelowna, I think, is a bit more of a, has the potential to be more of a boom and bust
Ryan Wyse: Yeah
Ryan Berlin: ... market. So I wouldn't be surprised in the next couple of years, especially with the direction of change here with policy as, as it relates to the short-term rental ban if, if we don't see a, a significant pickup.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah, I mean, it had a run of, like, 10 years as the fastest growing CMA in Canada.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Ryan Wyse: Census metropolitan area. Like, from I think it was 2010 to 2020 was the run. Growth was absolutely massive, and it was both, you know, intra-provincial people moving from within BC
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm
Ryan Wyse: ... and from across Canada, much more than it was people moving internationally. It was a lot of Canadians moving from all over the place to Kelowna.
Rob Breckwoldt: And you see, like, the expansion of the airport.
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm.
Rob Breckwoldt: Like, it's interesting 'cause you think back at 2024, and I watched it as, y- you know, there's some, definitely some hard summers there for businesses, and you saw them close, and, and there was a lot that were able to hang on. But there's a lot, especially with, like, Aqua and Movalla
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm
Rob Breckwoldt: ... Caban, like, they have big retail, and they're filling. You got big spas
Ryan Berlin: That's great to hear
Rob Breckwoldt: ... going in Movalla. Aqua has a big, like, day spa going in there, like, huge TIs.
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm.
Rob Breckwoldt: So I think definitely people are betting on Kelowna again
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm
Rob Breckwoldt: ... for sure, and the Okanagan.
Ryan Berlin: That's awesome. Let's move over to rental. There's a, a stat or a series of numbers here that really kinda stops you in your tracks. So Kelowna's purpose-built rental vacancy rate went from under 1% in 2022, so that, that, that number doesn't knock your socks off if you're from Vancouver.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah, we're used to that.
Ryan Berlin: You're used to that. But it went from under 1% in 2022 to nearly 7% only three years later, so from.9 to 1 to 3.7 to 6.9% for four consecutive years. That is very much a once in a generation shift. The easy story there to explain that is that the short-term rental ban fixed it, right? But you've been looking at the data, right?
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: I know you've had a lot of fun over the last week
Ryan Wyse: [laughs]
Ryan Berlin: ... sort of parsing things and coming up with a narrative, so why don't you share what you're looking at.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah, so I mean, the short-term rental ban came into effect May 1st, 2024. It was for most of the province, and it effectively limited short-term rentals to... within principal residence except for certain areas. And so Kelowna, which of course had a lot of short-term rental, you know, there's some estimates from Stats Canada that in 2023 it was between 1 and 2,000, depending on how many sort of illegal units you counted. But the reality was most of those homes were never s- that were being used for short-term rental restrictions were never, uh, available, like the kind of home that would be a long-term dwelling. So
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm
Ryan Wyse: ... it's not just like all condos.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Ryan Wyse: You know, it was
Ryan Berlin: Yeah
Ryan Wyse: ... cabins and we, we went through the list when it came out. Um, there was like, a lighthouse was a category on there, things like that. What actually happened was Kelowna, more than other markets, built a ton of purpose-built rental housing, and I think this actually began in 2015. Kelowna made a bunch of policy changes. The City of Kelowna specifically changed their OCP. They had a whole bunch of infill development that was, uh, added density, reduced development cost charges if you did infill rental. They made a real point beginning in 2015 to actually try to stimulate, uh, purpose-built rental development, and then CMHC came along in 2019 with the MLI Flex program that morphed into MLI Select in 2022, which made financing construction of purpose-built rentals much, much easier.
Ryan Berlin: That loan insur- loan insurance program.
Ryan Wyse: So what we had was from 2006 to 2015, purpose-built rental starts in Kelowna, 1,300 total.
Ryan Berlin: Total, yeah.
Ryan Wyse: Over 10 years. And that was similar to, like, the 30 years that preceded it. From 2016 to 2025, almost 11,000. So literally 10 times as many homes were started construction on in Kelowna in the past decade versus the decade prior. And that led to about 10,000 purpose- built rental completions, which doubled the purpose-built rental stock from about 5,000 homes to more than 10,000. Of course, you end up with demolitions and stuff in there. You know, you have anywhere from 1,000 to 2,000 short-term rentals that were removed. Some went into long-term rentals, some probably got sold. But really the needle mover here was Kelowna made a real concerted effort to promote purpose-built rental construction, and it was built. And so Kelowna now has a much healthier purpose-built rental stock, whereas the ban really was like a, a one-time shift of a few homes, and I'm sure it had some effect, but the much, much bigger thing for me was that the municipal government and, to an extent, the federal government really actually had a big hand in, in creating a system where purpose-built rental supply was delivered in big numbers.
Ryan Berlin: And that's against the backdrop, too, of, like you mentioned, that Kelowna was, as a region, was growing faster than any CMA
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm
Ryan Berlin: ... in Canada for a while there on a relative basis. It's really come off, right? It's really slowed, and part of that is, has to do with inter- interprovincial migration flows. Not as many people on a net basis coming from
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm
Ryan Berlin: ... Alberta to BC, but then obviously to immigration policy. Even though it impacts a place like Kelowna less directly, still has an impact.
Ryan Wyse: Exactly.
Ryan Berlin: And it's, it's the fact those demographic trends were occurring at the same time that purpose-built supply was expanding. I mean, you could remove this conversation around the short-term rental ban, and this feels like it would be explainable, what we've seen with
Ryan Wyse: Yeah
Ryan Berlin: ... the vacancy rate, right? Like it's, it seems that linear.
Ryan Wyse: It takes a while to bring new homes to market. It brings, takes a long time to build a tower or a, you know, a six-story wood frame building. And so, like, this is a project 10 years in the making, and with all that population growth, especially, you know, from 2015 to 2023, it took a long time for supply to catch up to demand. But I think if you step back and you watch, you know, starts and completions, like this was coming and
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm
Ryan Wyse: ... uh, it should have been recognized. And I think the short-term rental ban, uh, really wasn't the driving factor here, and it's had, uh, you know, some other consequences when it comes to things like tourism.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah, absolutely. So when leading up to the ban in 2024, did you see, I mean, did, did [laughs] do you think that homeowners, investor owners believed that that was actually gonna come to pass? And did we see, like did you see or did you have clients who were offloading rental units that were, that were on Airbnb or Vrbo?
Rob Breckwoldt: I don't think anybody saw it coming really. You know, there were conversations around it, but you have like a OCP and everything amended to support this type of zoning. You have pre-sales happening, marketing happening, price per square foot values around short-term rentals. So I think it caught everybody off guard. It's interesting, like the numbers around like that rental stock buildup, right? I feel they got the math right there, and they were really proactive about it. It's interesting now, and, and obviously hindsight's a little bit different, but you know, you see that vacancy jump from a sub, you know, 1% to jump like almost into double digits. You'd only say that they got the math wrong there. You know, to, to answer that question around like offloading their, their stock, I, I think people still wanted to believe. You know, the whole thing about Kelowna being, and that region being the fastest- growing really everything, I think during that transition time of that happening, like people still wanted to believe that, and have the energy around the growth of it.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: And then when it came into play, yeah, it just started to wreak a little bit of havoc on the market for sure, the speculative investor market. Uh, but I think it compounded with, you know, big fire
Ryan Wyse: Yeah
Rob Breckwoldt: ... the cold snap. Like yeah, it just felt like it was coming from every angle. Every month there was something.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: And I think it weighs on confidence of anybody willing to move, invest, anything, like commercial, residential, uh, move their family, right? So I think if I look at that, there was just a lot of factors that are hard to pull, like, you know, on, on resale, rental stock, such, you know, inventory. There's easy to pull data points from there, but who, who was affected by the, the climate, by fires and
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm
Rob Breckwoldt: ... the cold snap? Like that, that's a hard... And the economy in
Ryan Berlin: Well, there are macroeconomic factors that
Rob Breckwoldt: There's so much.
Ryan Wyse: Oh, yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah. To your point, like you could pull some, you could pull the short-term rental stuff out of it
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm
Rob Breckwoldt: ... and it would still make sense. So it's interesting now to review all those data points and say, well, like aside from the
Ryan Wyse: Tourism side
Ryan Berlin: Yeah
Ryan Wyse: And yes, for the investor, no longer being able to generate short-term rental revenue, yes, there's that, but the general overall, like, coming and going is, uh, I don't know. I'm going with it.
Ryan Berlin: The short-term rental ban, in all likely, it didn't have a significant impact on, you know, the changes that we saw in the, in the long-term/purpose-built rental segment.
Ryan Wyse: Yes.
Ryan Berlin: But it did seem to m- have manifest effects in the hotel segment.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah, and I think it's not surprising there because there's, like it's a much smaller base. There's, you know, fewer hotel rooms than there are rental apartments in any market. It's funny, when I was in Kelowna last month trying to get a hotel, a prominent downtown hotel, I won't name which one, uh, 700 a night on a weekday in mid-April.
Ryan Berlin: It's bonkers.
Ryan Wyse: So I, I did not stay downtown. Uh, I got a much better rate, uh, kinda near the mall, like 200 a night. Um, but Kelowna tourism has some great data on, so some of the strict, like, typical industry metrics that hotel uses. So average daily room rates over the past two years have gone up 16%. Average daily room rate year-round is over 200 bucks a night in Kelowna now on average. And then they do, like, revenue per available room, so that's like a, a more of an annual metric. It's up like 25% over the past couple years. And last year was the first year that occupancy had reached 2019 levels, 'cause occupancy had been hit obviously first during COVID.
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Wyse: And then again, even with, you know, less accommodation overall because prices have gone up so much, we hadn't seen a lot of the same l- uh, occupancy levels in, in '23 and '24. Then finally it got up to, like, 67% last year. So I think there's been a measurable, uh, an obvious impact to hotel prices. It impacts tourism. Fewer people are going and staying in Kelowna, either because hotel prices are too high or the place they really like to rent is no longer available.
Ryan Berlin: Hotel rooms and, and let's say Airbnb, you know, homes are not perfect substitutes for each other, right?
Ryan Wyse: Mm-mm.
Ryan Berlin: There's a, those are different value propositions and, and locationally to Airbnb or Vrbo, any of these short-term rental platforms, they offer you an ability to stay in places that you wouldn't otherwise
Ryan Wyse: Mm
Ryan Berlin: ... be able to access
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm
Ryan Berlin: ... right? If you only have hotels at your disposal. So yeah, so obviously I, I think broadly speaking, some negative knock-on effects-
Ryan Wyse: Yeah
Ryan Berlin: ... uh, objectively from the ban as it relates to tourism.
Ryan Wyse: So and short-term rentals [clears throat] can also be really good, uh, surge supply. So Kelowna just hosted the Memorial Cup.
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm.
Ryan Wyse: And unfortunately, there are new rules were not in place for that. They're hosting BC Lions games this summer. There's some other big events happening, and so, like, people can more easily put their home into short-term rental and accommodate
Ryan Berlin: Mm
Ryan Wyse: ... that sort of excess demand that you don't get year-round. Whereas here in Vancouver, we're hosting a soccer tournament of some kind.
Ryan Berlin: Mm. Yeah.
Ryan Wyse: And the ban is still in effect. So I imagine there's gonna be a bunch of illegal short-term rentals to try and accommodate all these people in town.
Ryan Berlin: I don't know how. You can't get them up on a platform. So it's hard to advertise them.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: It's hard to attract people to your home. I mean, you can always go the non-sanctioned
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm
Ryan Berlin: ... route, but then you don't really know who, who your guests are gonna be. But you're right. You know, with Kelowna, I think that was part of the impetus to get this waiver
Ryan Wyse: Yeah
Ryan Berlin: ... to lift the ban as of June 1st, as opposed to what would've been standard, I think is, is November of this year.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: Was to have that happen before the summer because of some events, but also just, I mean, tourist season's starting now.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah, it's interesting. You, you look at these, the, the policies and just the read on them, and it just is kinda baffling that it would
Ryan Berlin: Yeah
Rob Breckwoldt: ... be November 1st based off of what, what, what is needed in the area, based off of the events being hosted as well, and it's great to have it back. We'll see what happens. Um, I also think, like, you know, the Airbnb has been around for a long time, and it's a, you know, and, and those type of trusted platforms, uh, I think the, the world in general has become accustomed to that type of option
Ryan Berlin: Yeah
Ryan Wyse: ... versus a hotel.
Ryan Berlin: For sure.
Rob Breckwoldt: And there were also, you know, units purposely built and developments purposely built for that. So it was interesting to see those go back into the long-term rental pool, and you know, the feedback that I was getting from people is it wasn't very welcomed. People were like, "They're too small."
Ryan Berlin: Yeah, right.
Ryan Wyse: And it's like, yeah, 'cause they were built for short-term, not for long-term.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Ryan Wyse: Uh, and so yeah, it's just, it's, it's good to have them back in the, in the short term.
Ryan Berlin: Let's move on. We do have a listener question. Uh, it's one that we've been sitting on for a while here. Now that we have you here, Rob
Ryan Wyse: [laughs]
Ryan Berlin: ... we get to ask it, and then, uh, you get to answer it.
Hey, Ryans. Great podcast. Here's a question for you guys. There's a lot of families thinking of making a move to Kelowna for both the lifestyle and more affordable housing. Do you think this still holds true, or has the pricing gap between Kelowna and Vancouver narrowed? Let me know what you guys think.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah, great question. Uh, I think the pricing gap is quite the surprise for a lot of people who come and venture into the Okanagan for a, a move. The perception is that it's going to be a bigger gap. It's not.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah. Uh- It's still there, but it's not
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah
Ryan Wyse: ... massive.
Rob Breckwoldt: It's not sort of what was, what it's perceived to be.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: I think too, just in both markets, you know, especially I think in the Lower Mainland market, some adjustments as well have been made to the prices coming down, and so the, the gain on the gap there
Ryan Berlin: Yeah
Rob Breckwoldt: ... is just not there. But ultimately it's, there's a big lifestyle component, and as I mentioned earlier, just with my interactions with the melting pot of people that Kelowna is from everywhere is the lifestyle factor is, is true, and people live it. And so if that's something that's important to you, you, you will find it. So I think that that is a big driving factor.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah. We know, we look at the data, I mean, in terms of, we look at mover origins for Kelowna, it is, um, Alberta
Ryan Wyse: Mm
Ryan Berlin: ... and Vancouver that primarily contribute there. And I mean, there's, there's lifestyle and affordability considerations there. We know Metro Vancouver, you know, within the province, the d- this data set doesn't tell you where people go, but we know where they're going. They're going to the Okanagan and the island. 40,000 people leave Metro Vancouver every year. You know, both renters and owners. Probably in many cases chasing a different lifestyle
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah
Ryan Berlin: ... but also a lower cost of living, right?
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: And Kelowna continues to offer that.
Ryan Wyse: Sometimes it's young families looking for that lifestyle, you know, and getting the detached home. Sometimes it's people retiring. I don't need to commute downtown anymore. I'm gonna go sit by the lake, or play golf, or hike Knox Mountain.
Ryan Berlin: Nice.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: I see what you did there.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah. Good job. Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: It's good.
Ryan Wyse: I mean, that's like, I wanna play golf and hike Knox Mountain. [laughs]
Ryan Berlin: Ryan's like, "Actually, Rob, we should talk."
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah. [laughs] You know, if you have someone that wants to maybe not fully commit to moving to the Okanagan, now with this surge in rental stock and
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm
Rob Breckwoldt: ... it driving down the rents, like, it, I think it's a little bit more welcoming as well, versus previous being like, you know, sub 1% inventory. Like, it becomes a little bit challenging for someone that may just wanna try it for a year if you can't find anywhere to live, especially at that time, the, the market as well, right? It's interesting. I feel it's a little bit more welcoming now to
Ryan Berlin: Yeah
Rob Breckwoldt: ... engage-
Ryan Wyse: Mm-hmm
Rob Breckwoldt: ... in the either the rental stock or the, uh, purchasing.
Ryan Berlin: Okay. Thank you for that question, and remember, if you're watching or listening, we'd love to answer any other questions that you have. You can either email us at [email protected], or you can leave a voicemail at speakpipe.com/therenniepodcast, and we'll try to respond in our next episode, or we'll save your question until it's appropriate to ask. Before we sign off, Rob, advice that you would give buyers or sellers, both, in this market. What's your, like, what's Rob's
Ryan Wyse: Final thought
Ryan Berlin: ... yes, your MO or your, your, your parting piece of advice.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah, I think for, if you're a seller, it's, it's interesting. It really depends on the product, right? Like, it's hard to blanket the seller all into just being a seller or just being a buyer. I think if you're a, you know, a seller that maybe is offloading something that's not your primary, it may feel that the gain is not so great. But what is the opportunity just to have that off your plate? What's interesting, you know, looking back at, like, if I go for, like, a seller that maybe they're holding something that is zoned short term in Kelowna, it's an interesting conversation with them because I say, "Look, like, you actually have a, a very unique piece of property. Like, it's one of the last zones," especially if we're talking like-
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm
Rob Breckwoldt: ... Aqua or something relatively built in the last three to five years. Like, that's limited supply.
Ryan Berlin: Mm-hmm.
Rob Breckwoldt: The demand might not be there today.
Ryan Berlin: Mm.
Rob Breckwoldt: But, like, you've gone through these tough two years. Like, you've held on like cold. I, I mean, if you wanna get rid of it, you know, it's a different conversation. We're gonna have to position that correctly with today's market. But long term, maybe you just hold.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah, right.
Rob Breckwoldt: Uh, you have a unique offering there that's not being built, and if you look at the numbers of what that would cost to res- reconstruct, it just won't happen.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: The absorption's not there for the product. But the demand could be there for the use, so hold. For a seller that's moving, like, a primary, I think you just have to look again, like, what's the purpose? Why are you moving it? It's just trying to answer those questions about why, and then building sort of a process from there.
Ryan Berlin: Right.
Rob Breckwoldt: I think from a, from a buyer's perspective, I just say, look, like, the run of the market that we had in the past decade, like, do not base your decision on that. Well, either way, both good or bad. Like, we've seen some tremendous peaks and valleys there.
Ryan Berlin: Mm.
Rob Breckwoldt: And I say just lead with lifestyle. You know, make sure the home just feels like a home. Make sure the area just is, is, is really aligned with you and your needs. Uh, and take your time. Like, it's okay to be picky. Like, you're, you're making a huge investment, and you know, at the end of the day, like, moving sucks. [laughs]
Ryan Berlin: Yeah. I hate moving.
Ryan Wyse: Final thought.
Ryan Berlin: I used to like it.
Ryan Wyse: Moving s- what?
Ryan Berlin: Well
Ryan Wyse: Really
Ryan Berlin: ... yeah, I think there were parts of it.
Rob Breckwoldt: What parts?
Ryan Berlin: Like, maybe it's somewhat masochistic. I mean, part of it is the purging. Like, you know, you clean your, your current place out
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah
Ryan Berlin: ... and you're, like, finally make some tough decisions you weren't willing to make before.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: And so you move into your new place thinking like, "The stuff that I have is the stuff that I, that I want," and you get to find new places for it all. But the actual process of moving really sucks. Like, if I had to move again, I would hire a company to come in and pack everything too.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: Uh, because I just don't have time in my life to be wrapping wine glasses in newspaper. I don't wanna do that again, ever.
Ryan Wyse: I used to wrap my dishes in my clothes.
Ryan Berlin: [laughs]
Ryan Wyse: For real. Last time I moved, it just like
Ryan Berlin: While you're wearing them?
Ryan Wyse: No, but like clean clothes.
Ryan Berlin: Oh.
Ryan Wyse: Like T-shirts.
Ryan Berlin: Dishman.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: Wise, the Dishman.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah. [laughs]
Rob Breckwoldt: Uh, I, yeah, I know too. I think there's some exciting parts about it, um, but ultimately it's disruptive.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: Like, moving is a- Yeah. Yeah... is a big ordeal. Yeah. So just be picky and voice your opinion on it.
Ryan Berlin: Cool. Good advice. Finally, how can people get in touch with you? We don't really care what information you share here. It could be an Instagram handle, or it could be your home address and phone number. How would you like people to get in touch with you?
Rob Breckwoldt: I mean, can, can come hang out with me on a Friday.
Ryan Berlin: What
Rob Breckwoldt: I would say what it's called.
Ryan Berlin: What's that?
Rob Breckwoldt: Fuck it Friday.
Ryan Berlin: Oh yeah, fuck it Friday.
Rob Breckwoldt: Oh, yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: Right.
Ryan Wyse: Oh, yeah. You can find him on Lake Okanagan.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: Yes.
Rob Breckwoldt: Fridays.
Ryan Berlin: Surfing, yeah. Yes. You have to yell at him.
Rob Breckwoldt: Surfing early.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah. Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: 7:00 AM, be there.
Ryan Berlin: Right.
Rob Breckwoldt: I leave sharp. Uh
Ryan Berlin: I love it
Rob Breckwoldt: ... check out my Instagram. thisisrob.ca. That's the best place to reach me at.
Ryan Berlin: rob.ca?
Ryan Wyse: thisisrob.
Rob Breckwoldt: This is Rob
Ryan Berlin: Oh, sorry
Rob Breckwoldt: ... thisisrob. Did I say rob.ca.
Ryan Berlin: No, no, you said- No
Rob Breckwoldt: ... I just blanked.
Ryan Berlin: I didn't
Rob Breckwoldt: Jeez
Ryan Berlin: ... I wasn't putting it together.
Rob Breckwoldt: Berlin, shirt's blue.
Ryan Wyse: [laughs]
Ryan Berlin: This is
Rob Breckwoldt: Thanks.
Ryan Berlin: [laughs]
Rob Breckwoldt: How do handles work?
Ryan Wyse: Uh
Ryan Berlin: thisisrob.
Rob Breckwoldt: thisisrob.ca. Yeah, it sounds like a URL.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah. Okay, no, that's, that's pretty good. I'm surprised no one else in the world has that, or Canada.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah, they don't.
Ryan Berlin: It's good. It's very like
Rob Breckwoldt: This, this is Rob
Ryan Berlin: ... definitive.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: Um
Rob Breckwoldt: My name is Rob
Ryan Berlin: ... okay. Phone number? No?
Rob Breckwoldt: Uh, 778-990-0866. Yes, I am the coast transplant with the 778 number, not the 250. No one moves area codes anymore. It's- No.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah, you just
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah
Ryan Berlin: ... yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: I feel like there was like a l- like, I feel like the hellos weren't as friendly when I first was calling. Mm. Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah. No, it's, it's true.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah. But I think- Don't, don't answer 416.
Ryan Berlin: 4- I know who have the 403s around here.
Ryan Wyse: Oh, yeah. Mm.
Ryan Berlin: You know?
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: You know, so just saying.
Ryan Wyse: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: Um
Ryan Wyse: I'll take, I'll take those calls, but not 416.
Rob Breckwoldt: [laughs] I mean, I mean, you could always email me at [email protected] if [laughs] they feel a little bit more safe there, but.
Ryan Berlin: Where do you like to have coffee in the mornings? What cafe can they find you at?
Rob Breckwoldt: Oh, Sprout.
Ryan Berlin: There we go.
Rob Breckwoldt: Sprout. Sandrine, great pastries. Both, wow, lots of carbs.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: Man.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah. That was me this morning. Okay, listen, thanks for coming from Kelowna. You drove from Kelowna to be here today.
Rob Breckwoldt: I did.
Ryan Berlin: And we really appreciate it.
Rob Breckwoldt: Thank you.
Ryan Berlin: And
Rob Breckwoldt: Any time
Ryan Berlin: ... it's been a lot of fun, and we will do it again in a couple years.
Rob Breckwoldt: Can we say don't call it a comeback? What is that? LL
Ryan Berlin: Uh
Rob Breckwoldt: LL Cool J
Ryan Berlin: ... yeah, yeah.
Rob Breckwoldt: Yeah.
Ryan Berlin: Yeah. Rob, don't call it a comeback Breckwoldt, thanks for coming.
Rob Breckwoldt: Boom.
Thank you for joining us on the Rennie Podcast. If you'd like to learn more or to subscribe to intelligence updates, go to rennie.com/intelligence.
